Hy guys,
we are just a bunch of hobbyists in our little, recreational team, that's why i particularly have an eye on sustainability and make sure people don't get (seriously) hurt in training.
Recently a guest, who trains MMA elswhere for some years now, pulled off a "Can Opener" on one of my whitebelts, who hasn't learned a "Can Opener" defense yet. Gladly my guy wasn't seriously hurt.
I know the "Can Opener", know some other nasty neck cranks from Luta Livre or from guys who learn Catch wrestling, but i don't teach neck cranks, because of the risk/ reward ratio (in context of a hobbyist team).
In IBJJF it's banned anyway (in ADCC and MMA it isn't).
But on the flipside of course, it's good to know how to defend those!
What's your take on that ( i am not speaking of high level/ pro level grappling, but from a hobbyist perspective!)
"from my view, you are right ... it's a recreational hobby. you may speak about those techniques to your partners/students and show how to defend it, but prohibit it in full sparring. "guests" must be welcome, but a part of them will always be a problem.... trust me in my classes, doors are open ... but i do a "security check" speech to every guest we have. and of course.... first or second round with the mat enforcer is mandatory muhahaha"
Yeah, same here! I tell guests our "code of conduct" before (no guard "jumps", no kani basamis, no neck cranks, etc...), but it just happened "accidently", i would say, because the MMA player uses that at the gym he trains...he is a nice and friendly guy, very respectful, don't get me wrong.
We have "Can Opener" defense in our curriculum, but my white belt haven't learned it before. My former coach also emphasised, if you want to learn the defense against something, you also have to study the opposit, so on the one hand i don't want anybody of my peeps doing moves like a Can Opener (in sparring), on the other hand it's important to know how to prevent or defend it.
One of the brown belts that teaches at the local academy will say "take care of each other" before live rolling. This is so important for the oversight as well as the students. That being said, it is a tough job when the unknown MMA prodigy is on the mats. There are some standards across most gyms as you stated: no neck cranks, scissor takedowns, or wild knee-breaking guard pulls. This is a good reminder for the senior individuals to emphasize the "keep it playful" mindset amongst non-competitor hobbyist and those pro-level grapplers.I will monitor this with the folks I train with in effort to minimize the inevitable injuries that come with JiuJitsu.
With a few exceptions at the very top of the game, this is nothing but a hobby for almost everyone that doesn't own and operate a gym full time. What I mean by that is that they are paying their bills (including BJJ training) with another job, not paying the bills with BJJ. We all need to go to work tomorrow and should want the same for our training partners. Does that mean we should ban all of the "dick moves"? Not necessarily. Lots of them are safe to do, they just suck and you need to know how to deal with them. But some are far more hazardous than normal and need to be kept out of the training room except under very controlled circumstances.
"What's your take on that ( i am not speaking of high level/ pro level grappling, but from a hobbyist perspective!)"
There's an honestly fairly short list of things I won't do when visiting a new gym. This is one of them.
In my opinion, the can opener is best used for opening someone's closed guard, as opposed to an actual submission, and like all submissions, if you don't rip it on someone, it's fairly safe.
Hopefully you were able to communicate to this guy that it's not kosher in your gym, and maybe he'll be more reluctant to cranking when visiting another gym.
My personal approach to rolling when visiting another gym is best described as: "catch-and-release", only using techniques/submissions that would be legal in the majority of that person's competition divisions, with some exceptions - no wrist locks, and I always ask if leg locks are cool. For example, if I'm rolling with a purple belt, I'm not going to kneebar/toe hold them, but if they try it on me then it's game-on.
I think it's always best to make gym etiquette rules/norms part of your intro spiel; it cuts down on misunderstandings with visitors and new gym members, but I also recognize that many gyms don't say anything, so I just do what I described earlier, and it's worked well for me over the years.
"There's an honestly fairly short list of things I won't do when visiting a new gym. This is one of them.
In my opinion, the can opener is best used for opening someone's closed guard, as opposed to an actual submission, and like all submissions, if you don't rip it on someone, it's fairly safe.
Hopefully you were able to communicate to this guy that it's not kosher in your gym, and maybe he'll be more reluctant to cranking when visiting another gym.
My personal approach to rolling when visiting another gym is best described as: "catch-and-release", only using techniques/submissions that would be legal in the majority of that person's competition divisions, with some exceptions - no wrist locks, and I always ask if leg locks are cool. For example, if I'm rolling with a purple belt, I'm not going to kneebar/toe hold them, but if they try it on me then it's game-on.
I think it's always best to make gym etiquette rules/norms part of your intro spiel; it cuts down on misunderstandings with visitors and new gym members, but I also recognize that many gyms don't say anything, so I just do what I described earlier, and it's worked well for me over the years."
The thing is, as I posted above already, that I talked about our „gym etiquette“/ code of conduct“ and I was sure I made clear the dos and don’ts ….
Of course I talked to him after that and think I made my point, that although we do a combat sport, it’s not worth to pull off these moves in the recreational training environment we have.
He was very respectful and was sorry, my whitebelt wasn’t hurt, so in the end, all good.
I wouldn’t have ever done a can opener though on somebody if I would have been a guest at another gym and also never did.
There are different gym cultures out there…
As I said, as a hobbyist I don’t see the risk/ reward ratio
May be it was done out of ignorance ( can opener) but I think when you visit a gym/academy you shouldn’t try to tap anyone out the first rounds until you understand the ecosystem. Even worse: try polemic/ restrictive submission, because unless you are a high ranked belt, the next round would be with the gym owner or the highest ranked belt who will mop the floor with you and remind you your place in the food chain.
My academy does not use ranked rash guards and one no-gi night a “newbie” showed up for his first class and insisted to stay for sparring. The coach accepted but only rolling with people we would tell him. First round was with me and as soon as we started he launched himself into a deep toe hold ( brown belt and above only for us). I defended, and upped the game very rapidly ending up in a guillotine a few moments later… requiring one or two additional taps to let go while I asked how much of a newbie he really was.
He did not answer, quit the mat immediately and left the building stating he would not train somewhere where his “ newbieness” was doubted.
This is a long story to say that a visitor should be welcomed with a code of conduct and have a few rounds first with higher ranked belts to avoid injuries and drama. Then decide if and when a lower belt will spar with the person.
Man, these situations are always tough IMO. I always tell people that on the mats it's your job to keep youself safe, not the other person. Technically, it's their job to try to hurt you. That's a fancy way of saying tap out, take a knee, or quit if you think you might get hurt. There's also the "Tap Early, Tap Often" mantra. Again: Keep yourself safe, don't expect the other person to do that for you.
Having to go over all the things acceptable before every sparring situation is difficult to do. It's the best way to ensure that everyone understands what is acceptable but it's time consuming and I rarely do it myself for any of our classes. But it would also be hard to be upset with someone for doing something they didn't know they shouldn't be doing. It's not always easy to place blame or know how to always address it.
However, if you tell someone what not to do and they do it anyway not we're gonna fight. Because to me, if we are doing a BJJ class and I tell you NOT to heel hook me and you try anyway it's no different than trying to punch me or bite me. And if you try to do those things, then we are no longer doing BJJ we are fighting.
When I was a white belt, I had a purple belt intentionally sprain my neck with a can opener because he didn’t like me. I tapped, but he kept cranking until my neck popped. I was out of training for months and he got kicked out of the school. As a result, I’m cautious about letting lower belts use neck cranks. Advanced practitioners who know and trust each other are welcome to use cervical locks if both sparring partners agree.
"When I was a white belt, I had a purple belt intentionally sprain my neck with a can opener because he didn’t like me. I tapped, but he kept cranking until my neck popped. I was out of training for months and he got kicked out of the school. As a result, I’m cautious about letting lower belts use neck cranks. Advanced practitioners who know and trust each other are welcome to use cervical locks if both sparring partners agree."
Exactly that’s what I don’t want in my team: somebody gets seriously hurt because of that shit.
Yes, Jiu Jitsu is a martial art and combat sport, but I want to have and have an environment, where it’s safe to learn and train, especially because it’s on a recreational level!
In your case , as you wrote, it was intentional… that’s a no go . I don’t want those kind people training with me.
Fortunately in the case I described above, the guest guy pulled it off kind of unintentionally and my whitebelt student had time to tap and nobody got hurt.
In the end it was good that it happened (no one got hurt), so I could teach the defense and how to prevent can openers and to make everybody aware of it!
„an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure“
Thanks for all your answers and opinions about that topic 🙏🏻
"I only use "dick moves" on the people I really like. It generates much mirth :D"
Yeah, moves like a „muffler“ on a good friend is one thing and is fun, but neck cranks or kani basami, which could seriously injure someone, is a whole different ballgame (on recreational level) in my opinion…
I personally like the idea of no neck cranks unless it is agreed upon with your training partner beforehand. Same thing with certain leg locks such as heel hooks and knee bars and things that a lot of us would consider obvious such as grabbing fingers. Often times, students can be hurt before they realize how dangerous of a situation they are in. Heel hooks don’t hurt until they do and damage has occurred. I also like the idea of the rules being posted publicly so that everyone has the same expectations. I think it can also be good to make sure students feel empowered to pause or end a roll when rules are being broken and not feeling they have to rely on an instructor to stop the roll or training session.
I am torn here. Can openers suck, for sure. If you're ripping a can opener on someone with real force rather than using it to just make someone uncomfortable, you're a douche. A move is only a dick move, though, if is not allowed by the instructor(s). In this case, it must be part of a rules and policies list or verbalized before every sparring session. Everyone must know it's not tolerated. For instance, people say heel hooking in the gi is a dick move, but it's a common thing in our gym. In reality, this is a martial art. If you're uncomfortable with some of the moves within the art, choose to get better at defending those moves or find a new hobby.
I almost came to blows with someone because I did a knee bar as a blue belt on another blue belt. I was new to the gym and no one said to me that they went by ibjjf rules during sparring.
I also think it's interesting what people will tolerate and what they won't. Most places tolerate stack passing, but not can openers.
I'm a believer that jiu jitsu is not for everyone, because not everyone can tolerate how uncomfortable things can get. If it was for everyone, we would all have 1000+ students at our gyms.
I've seen online at least one place has a big poster of "banned moves", e.g. kani basami, arm trapped mat return and so on. I think it's a pretty good idea, so it's consistent for all, and you can show any newcomers / visitors the poster and go through it if they're unsure what any of it means. It also helps being clear on what might be allowed in your gym that isn't in others or vice versa, e.g. I've trained at places where leglocks like heel hooks are fine from white belt, whereas others are strictly IBJJF rules. I also agree it's good to have a couple of senior belts roll with a visitor first to suss them out, and then watch them carefully when rolling with lower belts.
